Do Arsenal Fans Know What They’re Asking For?
I wanted to call this post “That’s Just The Way It Is” but it would have been a retrospective title only understood by those that read it so I decided to go for this one.
In many ways Arsenal fans are split into factions. You have some who say let’s get in a sugar daddy and those who say let’s stay as we are. There are those that call for Wenger’s head on a daily basis and those that believe him to be completely infallible.
I think most Gooners are like me; in the middle. We’d like to spend more but only if we can afford it and we trust Wenger but do not think he is faultless.
However when it comes to transfers it seems one camp is bigger than the other or at least more vocal.
The majority of voices are calling for “big names”, “stellar signings”, “superstars” etc and the names which crop up are the likes of M’Vila, Kagawa, Giroud, Llorente, Falcao etc and whilst they are all great players I wonder if the fans realise what they are really asking for.
The reason I say this, is because of the backlash I got from my post about experienced premier league signings.
It wasn’t the disagreeing with me that prompted this post as I expect some people to disagree with what I write sometimes, it’s part of being a blogger. It was the reasons so many gave for disagreeing with me that prompted this post.
The reason I was most given for being wrong was; “We need to win something. M’Vila, Giroud and Kagawa will help us do that”.
Parody
I don’t care who you are, everybody needs time to adjust to a new league. Some hit the ground running, some adjust by the end of the season but sure as rain there will be a period of at least 4-5 games during that first full season when the demands of the league get the better of them. Those few games could be the difference between winning the league or not.
If we buy these “names” from outside of our own league then we simply have to afford them time to adjust, not only to the league but to our style of play and life off the pitch. We cannot guarantee that any player joining from another league will enjoy life in England or that they will be able to replicate the same form in the Premier League.
In the past we had the luxury of time. Time to settle a player, time to ease them into the league and time to be patient with them when things weren’t going too well. Arsenal no longer have this luxury.
I believe that if we want to win something next year then we should be strengthening the squad with players that will not need this time to adjust. Look at Mikel Arteta, he has looked as though as he has been playing for us for years. That is what we need. Instant performers.
The player I got the most opposition to on Twitter was surprisingly Clint Dempsey.
The 3rd most popular argument against him was laughable. It was “he’s only had a few decent years at Fulham, before then he was average”. Firstly, so what? If he is influential in the league now then what’s the problem? Secondly, M’Vila and Kagawa have only had a few decent years at their clubs. What is happening now is what is important.
The 2nd most popular argument against him was “He’s too old, Kagawa is one for the future and better long-term”. Don’t we have enough players for the future? Yes, Kagawa is the better option long-term but don’t we want to win something sooner rather than later? Dempsey is the right age to benefit us now and would strengthen the team and squad whilst allowing us the luxury of gradually introducing players like Eisfeld and Gnabry.
The most popular argument against him was hilariously ridiculous. So many people were using Fulham’s league position as a reason not to bring Dempsey in. Arsenal players aside, of all of Chelsea’s, City’s and United’s premier league purchases how many players have come from another team challenging for the title or even champions league? Pretty much all of those players have come from so-called lesser teams finishing outside of the top 6 in most examples and have gone on to help these clubs to success whereas Arsenal in contrast with their overseas purchases have had none.
When Wenger first came to the league his methods and the players he bought were a total revelation and he was able to build core after core that lead the team to glory or at the very least challenged. This is no longer the case as other clubs have caught up with our scouting and training methods.
And now just as we start to build a core that is capable of challenging we lose a player and replace them with a player unproven in the premier league and as they start to come good we either sell them or one of their team mates thus weakening the core. Every year we take a step sideways in order to position ourselves for a step forward but every season our path is blocked. We’re stuck in a vicious circle and in my opinion we need proven premier league players to smash that blockade and enable us to move forward.
If we want to win we cannot afford to be a finishing school any more nor can we afford to keep replacing almost realised potential with more potential. We need more proven premier league players even if they are just consistent in being unspectacular yet efficient.
Big names don’t win titles, big players do and you either buy big players or you make them. Arsenal cannot afford the time to make them at the moment so we need to buy them and for me there aren’t many players in the league bigger or more influential than Clint Dempsey has been for Fulham and as we’ve seen with Arteta that form can be replicated and improved upon in a superior side.
So the question Arsenal fans need to ask themselves before they talk about who we need or disregard the choices of others, is do they want to win something next season or do they just want a team full of big names.
Thanks for reading today I’d like to leave you with a little song that might just ring true to many a Gooner. I’ve been listening to a lot of Bruce Hornsby and the Range recently and today I found myself singing lyrics independent of Bruce’s originals all about the Arsenal. I hope you enjoy them. Click here for the meaning of the lyrics if you need to.
That’s Just The Way It Is
Put us in line, 3rd best all time
Still waiting for the 14th time
‘Cause we can’t buy the league
The man in the blue shirt hurries by
As he catches the poor old Alsatians’ eyes
Just for fun he says “Win a cup”
That’s just the way it is
Some things will never change
That’s just the way it is
But don’t you believe them
Hey little boy you shouldn’t play
for boys at the Grove
because they don’t pay like we pay
Said hey old man how can you stand
To lose another that way
Did you really think about it
Before you sold to the blues
He said, Son
That’s just the way it is
Some things will never change
That’s just the way it is
But don’t you believe them
The football law, boys of ’54
Try to stop those with too much more
But it won’t go to plan
Because the law won’t stop the oil slime
When all they see at finance time
Is their club on the silver band
That’s just the way it is
Some things will never change
That’s just the way it is
But don’t you believe them
Don’t believe them. Believe this.
It doesn’t just have to be a dream
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Very true yes buy established players in the EPL.
Any blog that uses ‘Wenger’ instead of Arsene arouses my suspicions. When you go on to ignore the fact that we cannot compete with Chelsea Man city or Man UTD in the transfer market regardless of what part of the world our transfer targets come from, and then to cap it all mention Bruce Hornsby and the bloody Range I’m out of here. Jeez.
Why would that arouse suspicion?
Also, read some of my older posts. I blog regularly about our inability to challenge these clubs in the transfer market but that doesn’t mean we can’t build a winning team. Montpellier and Dortmund have both beaten their big spending rivals this year and we still finished higher than Chelsea. Remember that the CL and FA Cup are cup competitions, anyone can win them.
I’m glad that you enjoy real blogging. Cheers 🙂
am glad i’ve come across your blog via gooner dave,great pieces and thanks for your time and putting it as it is-i’ve enjoyed!
Glad you enjoyed it Tracy
I believe With experience and unique talent big players should be able to adapt to big leagues…its quite reasonable getting experience from the lower clubs in the premier league. But adding big names from other leagues would definitely bring new life into the team. so while considering the likes of dempsey,ba, samba(who has premier league experience) etc let’s not forget the likes of hamsik, gotze, ganso, chellini who could boost the team’s quality
I think our unorthodox way of doing things is killing D̶̲̥̅̊ image of D̶̲̥̅̊ club.we could learn from bayern munich U̶̲̥̅̊ know produce 60% of plays,then gets 40% well experienced legs with technic we would do alot of damge in league A̶̲̥̅̊₪d̶̲̥̅̊ europe.so if le prof can have access τ̲̅ȍ thisd post.he should have a change in his philosophy it’s Ω̴̩̩̩̥σ longer working D̶̲̥̅̊ fans α̲̅я̩̥̊ε̲̣̣̣̥ vexed with D̶̲̥̅̊ fact that his adamant A̶̲̥̅̊₪d̶̲̥̅̊ his I don’t care attitude about D̶̲̥̅̊ club being trophyless for a 8years.
Liked your blog post but I don’t think the exp EPL player argument holds true most times. First and foremost its the quality of player which matter. If we have an option of singing Giroud or Grant Holt/Zamora etc, who do you think we should sign?
Similarly you give the example of Arteta as an EPL ready player but we also signed Silvestre from Man Utd, who had won medals there and was I think in their squad for 6-7 seasons, what happened to him when he came here? Other examples are of Downing, Caroll and Adam, even if you disregard their price tag, their performances were horrendous even though they did relatively better in their previous clubs.
In the opposite end you have players like Demba Ba, Cabaye and Cisse who started performing since the 1st minute they played here.
Overall the point is that I don’t think there is much +ve in getting an EPL exp player, the quality of the player matters the most. If there is a choice between Kagawa and Dempsey I would definitely choose Dempsey but not because he has been playing in the EPL for some time but because he is better than Kagawa in almost all the areas(defense, offense, passing).
Thanks Shrey.
Well Giroud is a better player but will he replicate his form in the EPL straight away? I’m not so sure. Remember, Gervinho and Chamakh were both excellent scorers in Ligue 1. Holt or Zamora would not suit our play but if you said Giroud or Bent/Ba I would go for Bent or Ba because they are proven to score goals in this league.
Silvestre was past his best. I’m talking about players in their prime.
Downing hasn’t been awful. The LFC team just aren’t putting away the chances he creates. Carroll hasn’t had much game time and Adam is just a very average player. You can pick hundreds of players in the league that aren’t good enough for Arsenal but that doesn’t detract from the quality of the ones that are.
Ba struggled in the 2nd half of the season, Cabaye also had a wobbly period, Cisse hasn’t been here long enough to judge. Like I said in the blog, some players do perform straight away but my point is we cannot afford to take those risks any more.
I disagree. Forlan is a quality player but he couldn’t hack it in the premier league. Shevchenko was one of the best players in the world but he couldn’t hack it in the premier league. Quality players sometimes just don’t adapt. Because of our situation I would rather take a steady performer who is proven in the EPL over a player who is outstanding in another league but unproven in ours. It’s not about quality at the moment, it’s about being able to afford to take those risks.
Well some good point but some no so as well.
” This is no longer the case as other clubs have caught up with our scouting and training methods.”
I am more of the opinion that we can no longer buy the targets because we get gazumped.
The two clubs who finished above us scouted no one .They just bought big.
Right I will scoot back to Le Grove now 🙂
Stew likes Mr.Wenger or Arsene.He feels “Wenger” is disrespectful.So do I as it goes .Although your tone is anything but.
I disagree. We haven’t really tried to get many players from the premier league and when we have we have backed out over costs (not even massive differences in valuations). We do get gazumped sometimes but more often than not we just pull out of negotiations and stop trying which in most cases I don’t blame the club for.
Man U scout players all the time. Man City just buy big.
I thought we had gotten past this George? 😉
That’s a little lame don’t you think? Does Wenger call Song or Arteta Mr.Song or Mr.Arteta? Using a surname is perfectly acceptable in my opinion but it something so insignificant turns you off then fair enough. Each to their own.
Sorry Yes I should have said we get gazumped with our scouted players .Of course the likes of Dempsey are still available.
United scout player like Brebatov,Rooney ,Ferdinand,Hargreaves…….Sorry who have they scouted that was off radar?
As for Stew,I am only telling you how he thinks.He genuinely does feel its a sign of disrespect.And he treats people with respect ,so he is entitled to his opinion(see what I did there?Got you with your own line from the other day)
I never said he wasn’t entitled to his opinion just that it’s wrong (like you did the other day. Do you see what I did there? 😉 ) I also said each to his own.
When I say scouting network I mean overseas scouting. Scouting other EPL players has always been available to all. United scouted Hernandez and Nani.
Who were both Internationals I think.
Oh and touché,well played
Who had heard of Hernandez though? Vermaelen was an international too.
Why thank you 😉
i had heard of him
I agree, when we bring in players from abroad they need time
To adjust. Experienced Prem players does make sense. The downfall
there is that most are vastly over priced. As for our scouting system
Even if we have the best in the world, when clubs like ManC etc come
In and double what we offer then we have no chance. They obviously don’t
Need a one. I think a mixture of both, is the way to go. A clear out of players
In order to create a better depth in strength is what I would like to see.
Well said pal.this is an emotinal article for us true gooners and after reading i felt like crying but there is still hope at the end of the tunnel.i agree perfectly with u cos there is no time to waist as we need some established and experienced players from our league and clint DEMPSEY and LEIGHTON BAINES are no exceptions.fantastic article by a true GOONER.UP GUNNERS AND CHEERS TO ALL GOONERS.
This is very true 🙂
THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE PROFF. FIND IT DIFICULT TO BUY A BIG AND WELL KNOWN PLAYERS IN ORDER NOT TO BENCH HIS FAVOURITE PLAYERS, BUT AS SOON AS THE PLAYER HAVE A GOOD SEASON HE WILL DECIDE TO LEAVE FOR TWO REASON, EITHER TO WIN TROPHY OR FOR THE SAKE OF MONEY.
What a well thought out and structured comment.Do you write your own stuff?Perhaps a blog? No? Oh Well!
Daniel, another great article on this topic. I think you make some great points.
Here’s a bit of my counter view, Dempsey is a great pick at a fair price. Problem is, if that price gets bid up to unreasonable levels. Which leads to my main point. There is a significant premium for any decent EPL talents in general. There has been for a while.
Wenger has to try to do more with less resources than the Big 3. If he can get Dempsey at a fair price? Great.
But as an ongoing strategy he must fish in a different pool.
It amazes me that people (not you) have not noticed that we walk from EVERY auction situation. If the player doesn’t select Arsenal early on, then we slowly move towards the door. Look at everyone we have brought in recently.
The only time AW will fight with the rest is over precocious talent eg Ramsey, Walcott, Ox. Why? Because these amounts are within AFC-type budget.
I don’t think it should be a long term strategy. I think it should be short term to help the team get back into a position where we can afford the time needed to nurture precocious talents.
The thing is Daniel,I think Dempsey is a shade below our standard.
I disagree. His return for a lesser team displays his qualities. In my opinion. I have it on good authority from a trustworthy source that his representatives met with Arsenal recently so you may have the chance to judge him in an Arsenal kit next season.
We will see then
Perhaps?
Squad player maybe ,I dont see him in the first eleven .
But what do I know
I don’t know what you know do you know what I mean? 😉
The problem is not what I know,its what I don’t know.You know?
And I don’t know what I don’t know ,because I don’t know it.
I may know what you don’t know but I don’t know if what I know is what you don’t know without knowing what you know that I don’t know and I won’t know that until I know it do you know?
Reading through this post and the comments above one thing is blatantly obvious to me: Spending large amounts on players is ALWAYS a risk, Whether they are experienced in the EPL or not. We can all give examples of cases where experienced EPL players have not lived up to expectations or price tags at their new clubs just as we can give examples of these types of signings having an immediate impact – The same goes for players signed from overseas. There are many contributing factors involved when it comes to whether or not a player will settle and thrive at his new club and in an annoying way that’s what makes it more interesting. Basically, to assume that signing players already playing in the same league is some kind of guarentee of sucess or even improvement is a bit ignorant if you ask me.
I’m not suggesting it’s a guarantee. I’m suggesting that the risk of them not adapting to the league is almost entirely diminished. All players carry the risk of not adapting to the team, overseas players also have the risk of not adapting to the league.
I kind of see your point but then I could also say that players like Carrol, Torres, Berbatov etc HAD adapted to the League nicely and it didn’t do them much good when they moved to their new clubs within the same League. I feel (and I’m not saying that this is a rule as my main point is that I don’t believe there is one) that if a player settles well and feels comfortable at a club and with his new team mates then he’ll play his best football and ultimately be a successfull signing – Predicting whether or not this will happen when scouting a potential signing is the key but is obviously no mean feat.
I think you’re confusing what I’m saying. All players carry the risk of not adapting to their new team players from overseas carry the additional risk of not adapting to the league.
Carrol, Torres, Adams etc all knew the league but struggled to adapt to their new team. An overseas player, I will use Giroud as an example of a name not as an example of the man, could struggle to adapt to the team AND the league.
Buying from the same league negates the league risk which means they are only left with the team risk which you’d have with any player.
okay on the above issue i say you were right but at the same time wrong because take a look at andy carrol,wasn’t he from the premier league? and yet he failed to impress. so what am trying to say is that some players whether from out or within the PL adjust differently in different clubs. at times depending on the style of play and its the same reason i’ll dig the signature of OLIVIER GIROUD because am tired of waiting forever to win some thing. if its a risk,then lets atleast try our luck and see how it goes but not just slum off buying from out side of our league. money at times does buy success and if we manage to be in the forbes magazine,why can’t we manage buying top class players cos it seems its the reason we’re now days losing our top gems-we come off as less ambitious most of the time by buying young kids (not that am against the youth system) but because u can’t win with just kids-u need more than that-perhaps the mixture of both!
I think people are confusing adapting to the league with adapting to the team. All players carry the risk of not adapting to the team (Carroll at Liverpool an example) but overseas players carry the additional risk of not adapting to the league. This post is about that. Giroud, M’Vila etc could flop in the team AND the league. Carroll as an example just flopped in the team. He was dangerous at Newcastle in the same league.
now you’ve proved me wrong,i guess your right cos it seems i had failed to differentiate between the two. tx for that correction.
Tell that to Alex Ferguson when they won the title with “kids” but I do agree with most of your points
Kids complementing a core of experienced players
This has certainly stimulated some debate!
I understand your point about minimizing the risks involved in signing players with EPL experience but as per your post the other day I am not convinced by the names you’ve mentioned.
Dempsey may be a great squad member but agree with others that he’s not food enough for the starting eleven.
The other point to consider around the issue of signing EPL talent over overseas talent is this…
We’re trying to hold on to RVP. What does it say to him that while the teams around us are signing Hazard, Marin, Hulk etc we still look like we’re not going after any similar big names. I understand your point about it being a short term solution to potentially winning silverware but don’t think they’re the types of signings to inspire our captain to stay put.
I think we should make signings to improve the squad as a whole not tokens to please one player.
Forget the names I mentioned. Do you think the point is valid or would you preferred we signed more “potential” and tomorrow men?
I think the point is fair but I’d struggle to find players of a good enough standard.
I mentioned Baines and Sturridge the other day and I stand by them.
But equally I wouldn’t expect big name players struggle to fit in. I don’t think Hazard will at Chelsea for example.
I think people focus too much on our first 11 when looking at new players. Our first 11 is very good & tough to beat. Our top 14 are very good. Our problem is strength & experience in depth in my opinion. I could name 5 players that I believe would improve our squad as a whole which is what I believe holds us back from winning stuff.
Seriously? Norwich, Wigan, QPR, Swansea et al really struggled!
Song as our best option at DM? Santos/Gibbs as best options at LB? Ramsey/Rosicky/Theo can all be bettered!
And let’s not even start on the bench but Chamakh, Park, Fabianski, Djourou, Jenkinson, Gervinho, Coquelin and Squillaci (not even considering perma-crock Diaby or the players out on loan).
All of these players can be bettered. My choice is to buy players pushing/expecting a first team place and pushing the first eleven to improve or move to the bench. Those currently on the bench pick up their game or bog off.
Yes seriously. You pick individual games, group them in one and use them as proof of the weakness of the squad. If you take out our first 7 games which was a terrible start with a lack of focus & lots of new players to bed in then we were only 2 points behind City across the rest of the season. That’s pretty decent. This squad is good and they will prove you wrong.
We view Arsenal very differently and with all due respect you sit very much in the perennially “negative about Arsenal” camp. Very much like the guys at Le Grove (who you once quoted to me as a counter argument which I must say I found quite insulting as their posts are neither intelligent nor steeped in any fact or reasonable observation but that’s by the by 😉 ) you seem to find a negative argument about most of the Arsenal squad and entirely overlook the actual facts of the season which is when our first choice 11 played together we won as many points as Utd & City did with their first choice 11 which enforces the point that we lack depth and enforces the point that our first 11 is actually very good and difficult to beat. I could list all the statistical proof but I’d suspect you’d used a very tired comeback of “stats aren’t everything” and it’d be wasted effort. I also think you place far too much emphasis on keeping RVP and this has in my opinion clouded your mind like so many others about the types of player we need to bring into the squad. It’s all about names, names to keep RVP but none of the names mentioned have any real experience which prior to the last two seasons was the thing 99% of Arsenal fans thought we lacked the most. Now it’s all about 18-23 year old kids. We have plenty of those.
I really do enjoy our debates and chats but it’s very hard to have a discussion when your conversational partner is in complete disagreement with almost everything you say and shows no inclination to being open to different trains of thought whatsoever. 😛
49 goals conceded
10 games lost
At our best 9 point gap to MC but we’d played more games
Mid-table form for last 8 games – 12 points v 19 for MC
Relying on bad form of others around us to get 3rd
Qualifying for CL on last day of season (potential to have finished 5th)
2010/11
Last 8 games 9 points
43 goals conceded
Take form back to CC Final & it’s relegation form
Selling 2 best players in off season & not accepting it would happen (thus not having adequate replacements sorted), let alone ‘strengthening’ the team
We have a good first 11. Not a great first 11. We certainly don’t have quality subs.
And even more importantly we don’t have a rotatable squad that would allow us to play different tactics/players against different teams like MC & MU (or just give certain players a rest).
If you want to argue that we’ve been unlucky with injuries (Wilshere, Diaby, Gibbs, Santos, Mertesacker, Vermaelen, Sagna, Jenkinson just for examples), then you also have to ask why. Bad luck is one part but you can also argue over-playing in the ‘red zone’, rehabilitation programmes etc. bad luck you can’t account for but the other two are down to Arsenal.
I may seem negative but the problem is that I’ve watched the team I’ve supported for 34 years go through the same problems each and every season for quite some time now with no sign of overcoming them (poor defence, selling best players, lack of depth, reliance on one key player).
I like to counter my frustration with reading your positive posts but I sometimes feel like I need to give a counter argument – its not all bad but it’s also far from rosy!
It’s not rosy but our situation is far better than you make out.